Ik bedoel jou, de beste Curanoloog, als wat er met Gotthelf, Otto, Theo en Pim is gebeurd, niet met jou gebeurt.
Als het op transcriberen aankomt, ben je erg precies. Als het gaat om edities, drukken, versies, recensies, ben je slordig.
editie betekent = "bepaalde druk van een ... boek"
uitgave, exemplaren die in één keer gedrukt worden, druk van een boek
1) Aantal gedrukte exemplaren 2) Aantal te drukken exemplaren 3) Aflevering 4) Boekuitgave 5) Deel van een krantenoplage 6) Druk 7) Druk van een boek 8) Oplaag 9) Oplaag van een boek 10) Oplage 11) Oplage van boeken
Is verschillend van "teksteditie/ tekstuitgave".
edition = The entire number of copies of a publication issued at one time or from a single set of type. / The entire number of like or identical items issued or produced as a set
Édition (Nom commun)
[e.di.sjɔ̃] / Féminin
Impression, publication et diffusion d’une œuvre artistique (livre, musique, objet d’art, etc). soit qu’elle paraisse pour la première fois, soit qu’elle ait déjà été imprimé ; ou les séries successives des exemplaires qu’on imprime pour cette publication.
Totalité des exemplaires de tel ou tel ouvrage publié et mis en vente.
Par extension, l’industrie qui a pour objet la publication d’ouvrage.
Tirage spécifique de la même édition d’un ouvrage.
Exemplaire faisant partie d’un tirage dans une édition.
(Journalisme) Tirage strictement identique de l’édition du jour d’un quotidien.
In het Frans is het bijzonder duidelijk: « maison d'édition » betekent een uitgeverij.
"editie" is niet wat an editor/een redacteur doet, maar wat an publisher/een uitgever doet.
Als je naar klassieke Arabische werken kijkt, waren er tot voor kort meestal twee of drie edities: één uit Leiden en één uit Cairo, één uit Göttingen en één uit Oxford. Hier, "the Cairo edition" maakt geen probleem.
Maar met de Koran is het anders: er zijn tegenwoordig duizenden edities. Alleen al uit Cairo zijn er tien belangrijke uitgaven van de Warš lezing.
Here two images from a 1929 Cairo Warš Edition ‒ without a title page, as was common at the time:
And here from two of the oldest al-Qahira publishers, i.e. not from Bab al-Khalq, al-Faggala, from Bulaq or even Giza but from "behind" al-Azhar:
Apart from these 100% Cairo Editions, there are editions conceaved in Morocco resp. Algeria,
but produced in Cairo ‒ the Moroccan ones without production place, the Algerian ones with an
Algerian publisher's name. (Only the third edition of the third sherifian muṣḥaf was
produced in Morocco.)
Er is niet meer "de editie van Caïro" dan er "de Ayatollah" of "de roman van Parijs" is.
Alleen drukwerkspecialisten zijn geïnteresseerd in drukwerk (hoeveel regels per pagina, hoeveel pagina's per ǧuz, aanduiding van chronologie, saǧadat, sakatāt, typografie, kalligrafie...). Curanaloogen zijn geïnteresseerd in de rasmen, de verzendingen, de orthografie.
Zelfs als we alleen kijken naar de belangrijkste Ḥafṣ uitgaven, zijn er enkele uit 1881, 1890, 1924, 1952, 1975, 1976. Zelfs de uitgaven van de Amīriyya uit 1926 en 1929 verschillen van de Gizeh-prent uit 1924.
Ik weet niet welke editie bedoeld wordt ‒ zou kunnen bedoeld worden ‒ met "cairo edition".
Ik heb de indruk dat u de Uthman rasm bedoelt, het gebruikelijke schrift zonder extra alifen, dat gebruikelijk werd in het Ottomaanse Rijk en Iran.
De prent van Gizeh uit 1924 is bijna nergens in de islamitische wereld te vinden, maar vaak wel in Duitse, Nederlandse en Zwitserse bibliotheken.
80% van de Moslims gebruiken totaal verschillende uitgaven, zij het verschillende lezingen, zij het verschillende spellingen. Tot in de jaren tachtig gebruikten de Arabers van Mašriq ook overwegend Ottoaanse edities.
Tegenwoordig gebruiken veel Arabieren, Maleisiërs en Salafisten edities in de spelling van de 1952 editie van de Koran, maar alleen Oriëntalisten hebben ooit de Amīriyya editie gebruikt.
Een derde van de moslims is afkomstig van het Indiase subcontinent, zodat Indiase kwesties wereldwijd het meest voorkomen.
Bijna een zesde van de moslims gebruikt Indonesische edities.
Turkije heeft zijn eigen standaard, Iran heeft er meerdere.
Showing posts with label niʿmat allāh. Show all posts
Showing posts with label niʿmat allāh. Show all posts
Saturday, 6 November 2021
Sunday, 1 March 2020
on Flügel, Vollers ‒ Marijn van Putten again
Please skip this post.
It is not on print editions of the qurʾān.
Just on a twitter thread by a Leiden scholar, a brilliant linguist.

If you think: "typo, don't be so strict!"
van der Put published it a week ago, published it a second time unchanged in "Thread reader" and there are two years 1934 and 1950. In my view there are both wrong.

Anyhow, I am too young: For me Flügel's sorry effort was only laughingstock. I am astonished that Marijn van Putten devotes time to it. On Twitter he calls "Flügel's well-intentioned mess ... Schlimmbesserung ... 'correcting' [the Arab texts that he finds in the mss.] in his print edition.
From what he writes it is obvious, that he is not aware that Bobzin wrote that the verse numbers are not his, but those of Hinkelmann.

And he ignores "Die Divergenzen zwischen dem Flügel- und dem Azhar-Koran" by Arne A. Ambros in Wiener Zeitschrift für die Kunde des Morgenlandes Vol. 78 (1988), pp. 9-21
His ignorance is helpful. Otherwise, he would not have devoted a fresh ‒ an unnecessary ‒ look at the book.
What is even stranger:
He dismisses Karl Vollers' Volkssprache und Schriftsprache im alten Arabien (1906)
although Vollers comes to conclusions that resemble his in "The Language of the Uthmanic Codex"
I thought he is a bright linguist, who stupidly writes about things he does not understand. After this thread I know better.
Postscriptum
After he was alerted to the mistake, he tweeted "lol" ‒ by now deleted.
I do not believe that it was a typo, I am convinced that van der Put believed in what he wrote. Why?
Because almost everything he writes about printed copies is wrong.
In his thread on niʿmat allāh ‒ unlike the conference held in Berlin and the twitter thread, in his by now published article he is correct: "niʿmat allāh/rabbi-ka", some of his Grace of God-places are in fact Grace of your Lord-places -- he compares early manuscripts which the Cairo Edition although here ALL standards (Maghrib, Gizeh24, Turkey, India, Indonesia) agree completely.
In his iǧtabā-hu-thread
he speaks of "modern print editions" although HERE there are two different standard groups: Africa vs. Asia. ‒ Each time he gets it wrong.
Like most Arabist/linguists he has not studied modern editions: he writes about a field he largely ignores. So, I take it that he did not know a thing about the Flügel edition.
But because his article is very important, I annotate it where it talks on modern editions.
van Putten writes "Sadeghi[(& Bergmann 2010] defines the Uthmanic text type as agreeing with the text of the 1924 Cairo Edition of the Quran" (p.272) without giving a quote or the page. ‒ I can' find it.
Several times he mentions "the Sanaa palimpsest" when he means to say "the lower text of ..."
More serious:
"the Uthmanic text type have been accurately transmitted up until the Cairo edition." (p. 280)
There has been no accurate transmission from century to century, from muṣḥaf to muṣḥaf, but the Cairo edition of 1924 claims to be a reconstruction on the basis of the literature on the rasm, the ḍabṭ ...
When you have a manuscript from the 8th century and a print from the 20th, you know nothing about transmission; for that you have to study mss. from the centuries between.
A last point, although I know that many find it niggling, but I love correct language.
"ā is written plene" (three times) ‒ words can be written plene, sounds are written.
It is not on print editions of the qurʾān.
Just on a twitter thread by a Leiden scholar, a brilliant linguist.

If you think: "typo, don't be so strict!"
van der Put published it a week ago, published it a second time unchanged in "Thread reader" and there are two years 1934 and 1950. In my view there are both wrong.

Anyhow, I am too young: For me Flügel's sorry effort was only laughingstock. I am astonished that Marijn van Putten devotes time to it. On Twitter he calls "Flügel's well-intentioned mess ... Schlimmbesserung ... 'correcting' [the Arab texts that he finds in the mss.] in his print edition.
From what he writes it is obvious, that he is not aware that Bobzin wrote that the verse numbers are not his, but those of Hinkelmann.

And he ignores "Die Divergenzen zwischen dem Flügel- und dem Azhar-Koran" by Arne A. Ambros in Wiener Zeitschrift für die Kunde des Morgenlandes Vol. 78 (1988), pp. 9-21
His ignorance is helpful. Otherwise, he would not have devoted a fresh ‒ an unnecessary ‒ look at the book.
What is even stranger:
He dismisses Karl Vollers' Volkssprache und Schriftsprache im alten Arabien (1906)
although Vollers comes to conclusions that resemble his in "The Language of the Uthmanic Codex"
I thought he is a bright linguist, who stupidly writes about things he does not understand. After this thread I know better.
Postscriptum
After he was alerted to the mistake, he tweeted "lol" ‒ by now deleted.
I do not believe that it was a typo, I am convinced that van der Put believed in what he wrote. Why?
Because almost everything he writes about printed copies is wrong.
In his thread on niʿmat allāh ‒ unlike the conference held in Berlin and the twitter thread, in his by now published article he is correct: "niʿmat allāh/rabbi-ka", some of his Grace of God-places are in fact Grace of your Lord-places -- he compares early manuscripts which the Cairo Edition although here ALL standards (Maghrib, Gizeh24, Turkey, India, Indonesia) agree completely.
In his iǧtabā-hu-thread
he speaks of "modern print editions" although HERE there are two different standard groups: Africa vs. Asia. ‒ Each time he gets it wrong.
Like most Arabist/linguists he has not studied modern editions: he writes about a field he largely ignores. So, I take it that he did not know a thing about the Flügel edition.
But because his article is very important, I annotate it where it talks on modern editions.
van Putten writes "Sadeghi[(& Bergmann 2010] defines the Uthmanic text type as agreeing with the text of the 1924 Cairo Edition of the Quran" (p.272) without giving a quote or the page. ‒ I can' find it.
Several times he mentions "the Sanaa palimpsest" when he means to say "the lower text of ..."
More serious:
"the Uthmanic text type have been accurately transmitted up until the Cairo edition." (p. 280)
There has been no accurate transmission from century to century, from muṣḥaf to muṣḥaf, but the Cairo edition of 1924 claims to be a reconstruction on the basis of the literature on the rasm, the ḍabṭ ...
When you have a manuscript from the 8th century and a print from the 20th, you know nothing about transmission; for that you have to study mss. from the centuries between.
A last point, although I know that many find it niggling, but I love correct language.
"ā is written plene" (three times) ‒ words can be written plene, sounds are written.
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